Shariff Floyd - makes sense

[sec.101row23]

Originally Posted by Paradis

I have a problem with this "blinders on" mentality.

It's been the year to draft an edge rusher for what, 3 or 4 years now? Yet we haven't. In fact, I'd say that it's a fairly common occurrence that these tweaner OLB types slip further in the draft that we often mock, and rarely develop into the disruptive phenom we expect. And almost always, it's the dline who stay and stand the test of time, while the OLB drift into their 2nd and 3rd teams in search of contracts.

There's so many variables and dimensions to success at that position. You almost have to farm them, rather than draft them in rnd 1.

Here's what i know. Great OLBs rarely make a crudy dline look good. Great dline can allow crudy OLBs to put up numbers.

Well a GREAT OLB could make their dline look better by commanding a lot of attention, thus freeing them up a little. But, I tend to agree you more in that very good 3-4 DEs can disprupt a game a lot more and can make your OLBs look better much easier.

The trend now seems to be to match up good pass rushers against guards and try to get that pressure up the middle. It prevents the QB from having a clean pocket to step up into, and can also force them to keep a RB in protection.

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by Paradis

I have a problem with this "blinders on" mentality.

It's been the year to draft an edge rusher for what, 3 or 4 years now? Yet we haven't. In fact, I'd say that it's a fairly common occurrence that these tweaner OLB types slip further in the draft that we often mock, and rarely develop into the disruptive phenom we expect. And almost always, it's the dline who stay and stand the test of time, while the OLB drift into their 2nd and 3rd teams in search of contracts.

I'm not pounding my fist for the Jets to use their first round pick on an OLB. A few truths, however:

1) From 2006-2012, we drafted precisely ONE OLB. We all know who that "one" was too. That's absolutely unheard of for 3-4 defenses. I posted it in another thread, but teams like the Steelers and Niners were drafting one nearly EVERY year.

2) From 2006-2012, only three teams in the NFL have not had a double digit sacker -- the Bucs, Cards, and you guessed it, the Jets. It shouldn't come as any surprise given the first point.

3) While this class lacks the elite rusher at the top a la Von Miller/Aldon Smith, it does offer a plethora of first round pass rusher talent. This wasn't the case in the past few drafts. The only players worthy of a first round pick were top 10 caliber players. It just so happens that we weren't picking anywhere close to the top 10 in those years.

Guys like Moore, Jones, and Mingo would be able to make an immediate impact. I personally think Moore is the best fit for Rex's defense.

4) I don't know where your "OLBs drift into their 2nd/3rd teams and d-line do not" narrative is going.

4-3 ends like Jared Allen, Julius Peppers, and Mario Williams are on their second teams. I thought that only happened to OLBs? See, it goes both ways.

The reason why edge rushers bounce around are because they command enormous salaries; in fact, after QBs, edge rushers are paid the most. If a team doesn't view the edge rusher as one of their three or four core players, they let him go because they know on the open market someone will overpay for his services.

Watch it happen this year with Paul Kruger and Anthony Spencer, two guys who are great complementary edge rushers who will get paid as a premier pass rusher on a new team. It has nothing to do with them being 3-4 OLBs. And 4-3 ends like Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett will likely find new homes because their respective teams have to shell out big money to people further ahead in line (Suh/Mega/Stafford in Lions case and VJax/Nicks/Freeman in Bucs case).

Originally Posted by Paradis

There's so many variables and dimensions to success at that position. You almost have to farm them, rather than draft them in rnd 1.

Here's what i know. Great OLBs rarely make a crudy dline look good. Great dline can allow crudy OLBs to put up numbers.

- Well we've done a real "admirable" job "farming" these pass rushers. Let me know the next time Garrett McIntyre gets a sack where he doesn't get a free beeline to the QB and actually has to beat a tackle one on one. And as I said before, you can't farm OLBs if you don't draft OLBs!!!

Those crudy OLBs we had last year -- Thomas and Pace -- COMBINED for the same amount of sacks as Coples, an interior lineman playing ~50% of the snaps. I'd hesitate to call what Pace/Thomas put up as "numbers."

Sure, you don't need a stud at the position, but you at least need a guy who can win a one on one. Based on last year's game tape and the stat line, I would easily say we lacked that dimension.

[Paradis]

You're being dramatic. I didn't say - don't draft them, and i didn't say anything in support of Pace and Thomas. Every year JI gets bum-rushed by members drunk on OLB love - when the simple fact is - there's usually better football players available early on, then a guy who's going to boom or bust a position he may not even any tangible experience playing.

We definitely need to address the need, and we'll definitely need to draft/sign to meet that need. But I don't know if that's going to be magazine cover face many here want. Ansah? Jordan? Werner... these guys have nothing on some of the proven talent that will be available at #9

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by Paradis

Ansah? Jordan? Werner... these guys have nothing on some of the proven talent that will be available at #9

Ansah probably doesn't project to 3-4 OLB. Do not want anyway.

Jordan -- shoulder issues and might not be ready for TC. Don't want at 9

Werner -- not projected to 3-4 OLB by nearly every draftnik.

All I am saying is that if one of Moore, Jones (if medically cleared), or Mingo is available at 9, it's the best pick.

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by Paradis

these guys have nothing on some of the proven talent that will be available at #9

Outside of Warmack, who is proven talent available at #9?

There's certainly no skill position players worthy of that.

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by Paradis

Every year JI gets bum-rushed by members drunk on OLB love - when the simple fact is - there's usually better football players available early on, then a guy who's going to boom or bust a position he may not even any tangible experience playing.

I'm not going to argue boom or bust with you, but a few simple facts:

- Moore played in a 3-4

- Jones played in a 3-4

- nearly every scout believes Mingo's best fit is in a 3-4. Our own Tony Pauline said that he has the change of direction and ability to rush from a 2 point stance.

None of those three will have serious issues "converting" (or lack thereof) to 3-4 OLB.

[Rexipus Rex]

But yeah, let's use our third consecutive 1st round pick on a 3Technique DT / 5Technique DE!!!!!1111

[Paradis]

Well i never included Moore in the discussion cause frankly i don't see how he makes it to #9. Check that, he won't.

As for Jones, like Geno, if the coaching staff deems that player to be safe pick - then sure. I'm comfortable with that.

When it comes to Mingo, i hark back to the Floyd argument in that I just think there'll be better football players available if we pick at #9. I'm disappointed to see you take the "Lets take another DT/DE duh" argument. I don't think you can pigeon hole our current rosters into specific roles like that. Nor do i think we'll spend the majority of our time in base 3 sets. I dunno man. I just want to take an impact player

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by Paradis

Well i never included Moore in the discussion cause frankly i don't see how he makes it to #9. Check that, he won't.

You may be right, but at this time of year (and especially in this draft), we really don't have a definitive answer. Other than Joeckel, everyone is at least a smidgen in play.

Originally Posted by Paradis

As for Jones, like Geno, if the coaching staff deems that player to be safe pick - then sure. I'm comfortable with that.

Fair enough. That's pretty much where I stand.

Originally Posted by Paradis

When it comes to Mingo, i hark back to the Floyd argument in that I just think there'll be better football players available if we pick at #9.

Your opinion vs. mine. We'll just agree to disagree. No sense in arguing the better player.

Originally Posted by Paradis

I'm disappointed to see you take the "Lets take another DT/DE duh" argument. I don't think you can pigeon hole our current rosters into specific roles like that. Nor do i think we'll spend the majority of our time in base 3 sets. I dunno man. I just want to take an impact player

-I appreciate you thinking outside the box, but that would be beyond redundant. I'm definitely a BPA guy, but taking a guy like Floyd, who portrays a skillset similar to Wilk/Coples, would be overkill. Picking him up doesn't make us any faster on the edge.

-I agree that we don't spend the majority of our time in base 3 sets. That's part of the reason why I always regret getting into these 4-3/3-4 arguments. So many fans have such a rigid and narrow minded view of our defense, meaning they believe it's all one way or another and no gray area. I bet we spent less than half our snaps last year in a 3 man front with 4 LBs.

-I want an impact player too, but I don't see how getting another interior rusher makes a dynamic impact on our defense, even if Floyd is the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you do that, you're eventually pushing one of Wilkerson or Coples to the outside. And if you do that, you're basically saying that you're not going to put one of your two previous 1st round draft picks in his best position to succeed. Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?

I'll give you two examples, one realistic and one hypothetical that disagrees with your "let's just get an impact player and we'll be better" notion. Remember when the Eagles acquired Rogers-Cromartie and Asomugha in 2011 to team up with Asante Samuel? That was great and all, but they tried to pigeonhole three outside corners into one system where one guy was forced into a position he wasn't comfortable in -- the slot. We all know the results. Or how about this hypothetical? Why don't the Vikings sign Wes Welker in free agency and draft Tavon Austin in the first round? Then you've got three real deal play-makers on your offense. Boom. Problem solved. But wait, all three are primarily slot guys and one (or two) guys would be forced to play on the outside, thus minimizing their strengths as interior receivers.

My point is this: Getting BPA is great...up until a point. When you overcrowd a position, you're forced to do one of two undesirable things:

1) Put a player in a position outside of their comfort zone and/or strength.

2) Decrease the playing time of one (or all three) of your play-makers.


Paradis, I respect your opinions as a poster, and you raise a great point about the risk of drafting an OLB. I quite frankly don't believe that the transition will be difficult for the guys I prefer, but I agree there is an inherently higher risk of drafting OLBs. We also cannot miss on this pick. That being said, I gotta disagree with ya on Floyd.

[Paradis]

Well I can't argue much with that well articulated rebuttle. In fact, I think me and you are on the same page on a lot of issues here. The only thing we might differ on, is how effective you think Coples can be on the end of 40 front. I think he can play the f*ck out of DE in that formation, as well as DT. It's why he was the most gifted defender in last year's draft.

I'll leave it at this. Floyd doesn't have to be the pick, but if the board slides a certain way, and you consider my assumption that we'll be minus Pouha AND devito, then adding Floyd into that mix isn't a bad thing. He, like Coples played a lot of end too. ...so you'll have 3 studs, plus Ellis and probably another project NT to rotate on sunday. In our 40 and bear looks, we'll have Coples, Wilk, Floyd and mystery man (whoever we find at OLB) on the line. That's gorgeous baby. Or bump Floyd outside, bring Ellis for a few plays beside Wilk.

I'm just really falling in love with a fluid Dline.

[Paradis]

Anyway, i made my point, i know there's plenty of "common sense" to say it won't happen, but I at least I got it out there.

I'll leave y'all with this. He's a god damn machine.

[TheMikeIsHot]

Originally Posted by Paradis

Anyway, i made my point, i know there's plenty of "common sense" to say it won't happen, but I at least I got it out there.

I'll leave y'all with this. He's a god damn machine.

He's a beast... but do they really need to draft another DT? How much better would he make the defense? What does the starting lineup look like?

Are we looking at a DL of Coples-Ellis-Mo-Floyd? That's a lot of beef, studly beef but no real explosion.

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by Paradis

Well I can't argue much with that well articulated rebuttle. In fact, I think me and you are on the same page on a lot of issues here. The only thing we might differ on, is how effective you think Coples can be on the end of 40 front. I think he can play the f*ck out of DE in that formation, as well as DT. It's why he was the most gifted defender in last year's draft.

Yeah I don't think we're too far off in terms of thinking here. One nitpick however..

By no means am I an expert, but I am a UNC alum and have watched more UNC football games than probably everyone else on the board.

As a pure pass rusher, Coples is at his best working inside and not on the outside shoulder of the tackle. If we're concerned about our pass rush, sticking him out wide for the majority of the snaps is not the wisest investment IMHO. Surely our defensive linemen line up in multiple positions, but the majority of Coples's pass rushing should come from the inside. His college stats back that up. UNC investigations/allegations aside, the biggest reason why his Junior year stats were better than his Senior year stats were because he played DT then before getting bumped out to DE as a Senior.

Originally Posted by Paradis

I'm just really falling in love with a fluid Dline.

Oh, I'd love that too. And I think that's a big reason why Rex fell in love with Wilkerson and Coples. They're extremely versatile defenders because they can play both the pass and run out of a myriad of formations and alignments.

I still think that an OLB/DE can be part of that fluid line. Line up as a weak side or strong side end in four man fronts and then line up in a two point stance outside the tackle in other fronts.

[patman]

Originally Posted by sec.101row23

It does seem to be getting harder to find guys that "fit" the traditional roles of the 3-4 defense.

Because so many teams now run it. For a while the Pats and the steelers were the only teams than used it as a base alignment. And every year a few teams would experiment with it. But the game got so fast the teams started putting 250lb guys as DEs in the attempt to get pressure. Before, all those 250 lb guys were considered tweeners and only suited for a 3-4 alignment.

As a poster previously said it is very flexible, but it is mainly a run defense. With the league turning to passing even more even the pats switched to 4-3

[Rexipus Rex]

Originally Posted by patman

As a poster previously said it is very flexible, but it is mainly a run defense. With the league turning to passing even more even the pats switched to 4-3

Still not seeing any substantial empirical evidence to support that claim.

Like I said in a previous post, 11 teams ran a 3-4 last year. So basically 4-3 teams outnumber 3-4 teams two to one.

In terms of lowest QB rating allowed, 6 of the top 11 teams last year were 3-4 defenses. In terms of highest QB rating allowed, only 2 of the bottom 10 teams were 3-4 defenses.

If anything, the opposite of your argument is true.

[sect313]

According to NFL Network's Daniel Jeremiah, "everybody" in the league has Florida DT Sharrif Floyd graded as a top-five player in the 2013 draft.

Jeremiah explained that there wasn't much early buzz on Floyd because he was an underclassman and league personnel men hadn't had a chance to watch his tape. They have now. "He's a special pass rusher," said Jeremiah. "You put him in a three-technique, he's capable of getting you double-digit sacks."

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8430/sharrif-floyd

[Paradis]

Well, whether or not the Jets need another 3 technique lineman, it sounding like it might not even make it to 9 anymore!

Sharrif Floyd - DL - Player
According to NFL Network's Daniel Jeremiah, "everybody" in the league has Florida DT Sharrif Floyd graded as a top-five player in the 2013 draft.
Jeremiah explained that there wasn't much early buzz on Floyd because he was an underclassman and league personnel men hadn't had a chance to watch his tape. They have now. "He's a special pass rusher," said Jeremiah. "You put him in a three-technique, he's capable of getting you double-digit sacks."

[Yankeejet22]

If a player is unquestionably the BPA, you take him, and never look back. A team can never have enough studs on the DLine.

[Untouchable]

Originally Posted by Paradis

Well i never included Moore in the discussion cause frankly i don't see how he makes it to #9. Check that, he won't.

Moore falling to us is unlikely, but I wouldn't totally rule it out.

It seems like we say this about a handful of guys every year.

Last year there was no way Coples or Ingram would fall to us, then we ended up with the pick of the litter.

The year before that everyone said there was no way Wilkerson or Heyward would fall to us, and once again we had the pick of the litter.